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06 July 2013 @ 10:52 pm
I cannot believe I still have to say this: NOT YOUR PENIS, NOT YOUR CHOICE!  
Can you say American Hypocrisy? Yes, I knew you could.

"Equal protection under the 14th amendment.... unless you're a boy.

UTIs are easily treated via the use of antibiotics.... Unless you're a boy.

Genital mutilation is torture, disgusting and a cause for the World Health Organization to rise against it....unless you're a boy.

No doctor in her right mind would ever perform a surgery without adequate anesthesia or without it .... unless you're a boy.

Genitals are easy to clean.... unless you're a boy.

Circumcision aims to control you, rape you, deny you of sexual pleasure and is undeniably and unequivocally sexist to do it on a child based on gender... unless you're a boy.

If a baby shrills, thrashes, turns red, it is obviously a sign of great pain.... unless you're a boy.

Doctors live up to the Hippocratic Oath- to identify the problem, treat the problem if not self-limiting, perform the surgery if the problem cannot be treated, perform an amputation after all else has failed.... unless you're a boy...."

~ Annette Hawks Pratt
 
 
 
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 7th, 2013 08:26 am (UTC)
Written by a woman, of course. All the anti-circumcision B.S. always is.
~ Bruno  ~: STFUlordhellebore on July 7th, 2013 04:11 pm (UTC)
Indeed. All the millions of men in other countries, for example mine, who are quite appalled with the idea of cutting off a part of their or their sons bodies - they are secretly women. Only circumcised men are men. Or something.

And that genitals are easy to clean is bullshit? Fascinating. Again millions of men disagree.

Edited at 2013-07-07 04:12 pm (UTC)
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 7th, 2013 07:13 pm (UTC)
Angela, given how your behavior toward me has been nothing short of psychotic on multiple occasions I'm going to take your statistics here with a grain of salt.

Is circumcision a medically unnecessary procedure? Sure it is, and for that reason I'm fine with getting rid of it. But the women who are all against it seem to demand a reaction of abject horror against it and nothing less will suffice. Men of my generation, in this country at least, tend to be pretty well indifferent to the fact that they got circumcised. Now you can say that it makes the penis less sensitive, and maybe it does, but it's not like we have a basis for comparison. The fact that this is something that directly affects men's penises and we're not concerned about it should tell you how little difference it actually makes.
Cat: Colin Ferrel-uncut and...naked!forensicgirl on July 8th, 2013 05:50 am (UTC)
"But the women who are all against it seem to demand a reaction of abject horror against it and nothing less will suffice."

Yes, because the only rational and reasonable reaction to amputating healthy, normal, functional tissue from the genitals of a helpless infant (usually without anesthetic) IS abject horror. Have you watched a video of a baby being circumcised? It's absolutely gut-wrenching. I work at a pet store and am not easily disgusted, but the agony these infants go through makes me physically ill. I will never allow that to happen to any children I have.
People in the US are horrified by female genital mutilation in all it's forms(as well they should be) and should also react to infant and child circumcision the same way, but circumcision has been culturally normalized in the US so most people ignore or accept it.

There's also cognitive dissonance at work. Here's an example:

"For the parents who chose circumcision, the new information, if true, means that they inadvertently hurt their children. This is a very tough pill to swallow. They were trying to do the right thing, they likely worried about it, and now they are told that they did the wrong thing. These factors all combine to give the parent a very strong incentive to deny the harm of circumcision and continue to assert that circumcision is not harmful. This is because it causes cognitive dissonance in their brains, and the human mind always works to resolve cognitive dissonance. It works like this:

I would never hurt my child.

But they are saying that circumcision did hurt my child.

I cannot be a person who would hurt my child.

Therefore, circumcision did not hurt my child.

There is another alternative to resolve the dissonance, and that is to say, “I did not know that circumcision was bad, and had I know that, I would not have chosen it, but I did what I thought was right then, and I regret that, and I would not do that again.” However, this is a very emotionally and spiritually sophisticated piece of reasoning, and it is the rare circumcising parent who quickly resolves her cognitive dissonance in this honest and difficult way."
You can read more about this here:
http://www.moralogous.com/2012/03/01/a-brief-history-of-the-foreskin-and-circumcision/

"Men of my generation, in this country at least, tend to be pretty well indifferent to the fact that they got circumcised....The fact that this is something that directly affects men's penises and we're not concerned about it should tell you how little difference it actually makes."

I covered this above-it's a combination of cognitive dissonance needing to be resolved and of cultural normalization. Men and women in countries where circumcision is not practiced are appalled by the procedure.

"Now you can say that it makes the penis less sensitive, and maybe it does, but it's not like we have a basis for comparison. "

Circumcision does make the penis less sensitive:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html
The Sorrells et al study is particularly interesting.

And frankly, that circumcised men don't know what they are missing is a poor excuse for anything. I don't know what it's like to be sexually assaulted, but that doesn't stop me from knowing that it is wrong to rape someone and speaking out about it when I can.



Cat: Bryaugh from The Flight of Dragons.forensicgirl on July 8th, 2013 05:59 am (UTC)
I know many men who are also appalled by circumcision as well. It's not that women specifically are horrified, it's that people who understand the foreskin and circumcision are horrified. It's just easier for us women to actually consider the issue. And I know several men who have been ridiculed for speaking out against circumcision-one of whom had all the skin on his penis removed and is completely incapable of having sex as a result. His suffering is totally unnecessary and his human rights were violated, but I have seem him mocked and put down over and over again when he tells his story in an effort to prevent the suffering of other men. More and more men are starting to speak up, but it is a very difficult process for them. I have a duty to share their stories and speak out to support them. I notice that men who speak up against female genital mutilation are praised. Shouldn't women who speak up against circumcision be treated with the same respect?
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 8th, 2013 09:28 am (UTC)
I'm sure if I went out of my looking for men who agreed with me that circumcision is the worst thing that can happen to a man, I'd find them too. But since I don't, I've never in my whole life met a man who felt shattered for being circumcised as an infant. You can always find people who agree with you if you're determined to.

Like I said, I agree that it's medically unnecessary. But you're telling me I need to feel horrified and destroyed by it and I simply don't. It's my penis and as far as I'm concerned, it's never been in any other way, and I happen to like it. I REALLY do not like people telling me how I should feel about my body, even if their underlying point is a valid one.

Do you?
Cat: Bryaugh from The Flight of Dragons.forensicgirl on July 17th, 2013 03:39 am (UTC)
"I'm sure if I went out of my looking for men who agreed with me that circumcision is the worst thing that can happen to a man, I'd find them too. But since I don't, I've never in my whole life met a man who felt shattered for being circumcised as an infant."

That still doesn't change the failure of your initial argument. I have proven that men do speak out against circumcision.

"But you're telling me I need to feel horrified and destroyed by it and I simply don't. It's my penis and as far as I'm concerned, it's never been in any other way, and I happen to like it. I REALLY do not like people telling me how I should feel about my body, even if their underlying point is a valid one."

I should have been more specific in my answer, and for that I apologize. I do expect any rational adult (including you) to be horrified that circumcision is still being practiced even though it has been proven to be unnecessary and harmful, and a violation of the human rights of the baby or child it is being inflicted upon (the right to security of the person or bodily autonomy). If you are happy with your penis as it is then you have every right to feel that way and I am glad, since as I said I know several men who are very angry they were circumcised. I would certainly feel angry if I found out that my parents had removed a functional part of my genitals for no reason (and they could have done so, since I was born before female genital mutilation was made illegal in Canada). As I said, I do expect you to feel at least some compassion for the boys who continue to be victims of this surgery.

Cat: Andre the Giant Has a Posse!forensicgirl on July 17th, 2013 03:41 am (UTC)
"You can always find people who agree with you if you're determined to."

That doesn't automatically make my arguments invalid. That's why I actually examine the evidence I am given. I have seen no evidence justifying circumcision that has stood up to reason, logic, ethics and science.
~ Bruno  ~: your levellordhellebore on July 15th, 2013 02:35 pm (UTC)
Psychotic. Now I know for certain that nothing you have to say could possibly be taken seriously. On any matter. Also, how gives you the right to use my first name on LJ?
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 15th, 2013 08:02 pm (UTC)
If nothing I say could be taken seriously, why do you care?
~ Bruno  ~: I can kill you with my brainlordhellebore on July 16th, 2013 05:47 am (UTC)
Amusing pastime for when I'm bored. Like people engaged with the village idiots in former times.
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 16th, 2013 11:29 pm (UTC)
Have fun being crazy and writing fan fiction, Angela.
~ Bruno  ~lordhellebore on July 17th, 2013 10:01 pm (UTC)
I'm having a lot of fun, thank you very much. You have fun being "a real author" and looking down on us. It sure is happy-making.
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 17th, 2013 11:12 pm (UTC)
Frankly, Angela, I'd forgotten you even existed until you came in here starting shit. It's not that I look down on you, it's that I don't even notice you're there to look down on to begin with.
~ Bruno  ~: lumière snickeringlordhellebore on July 17th, 2013 11:33 pm (UTC)
That's interesting in light of you now apparently neeeeding to have the last word and trying to antagonise me by using a name that's not even mine anymore.

Edited at 2013-07-17 11:33 pm (UTC)
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 17th, 2013 11:44 pm (UTC)
Well whatever you're calling yourself this week, have a nice life.
~ Bruno  ~: your words are poisonlordhellebore on July 15th, 2013 02:36 pm (UTC)
and we're not concerned about it

Yes, in your little corner of the world. Your US-centrism is laughable.
Cat: The United States of Liberty andforensicgirl on July 17th, 2013 03:43 am (UTC)
That's a very good point. People in other countries are appalled that circumcision is still being performed in the US. Hell, I live in Canada and I'm appalled by it.
Cat: Aria!forensicgirl on July 8th, 2013 05:17 am (UTC)
Excellent points! Thanks for backing me up. :)
Cat: Colin Ferrel-uncut and...naked!forensicgirl on July 8th, 2013 05:16 am (UTC)
Not true at all. If you bothered to look many men have written about circumcision. I'll post some examples shortly. And none of what she siad is bullshit. Everything Annette says above clearly demonstrates the hypocrisy and sexism in North America regarding circumcision. That you disagree with her in no way invalidates her points. Boys AND girls AND inter-sexed children all have the exact same human rights and that includes genital integrity.

Some writings and videos bay men about circumcision:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Resent.html (men who resent being circumcised)
From the above-a question asked of Erik Rhodes, a porn star (he has sex for a living!):

"Anonymous asked
Hi Erik have you lost sensitivity since you got circumcised ? I read that you regret it, why is that ?

...

First off, Everyone was complaining saying it looked deformed and well… it was. The first doctor that did it, really f***ed it up… he, after months of leading me along saying that i had extra swelling… finally admitted he messed it up saying he would correct it and that “he was sorry”… Really, your sorry? Who wants to hear i’m sorry from the doctor who’s performing surgery on your penis? I swear, in my eyes, its as bad as a surgeon saying sorry that he f***ed up your face…

anyways, after losing sleep about this a**hole doing surgery on my dick again, i said to myself there is no way in hell that i could let the same guy who did this to me… try it again… i mean what if he messed up worse? So after doing 3 movies with my jacked up dick… i finally had a better surgeon do the correction. Which included having to cut my nut sack open and resetting where it hung… what fun.

So to answer the question, after getting all that out… yes i do regret it. I should have just looked for other options before letting some crazy a**hole take a knife to my dick and yes i have lost sensitivity. Its just not the same. Granted… it looks so much better now… as in after the second time around. Uncut cock is hot and i wish it was still intact."

http://joseph4gi.blogspot.ca/

http://www.mendocomplain.com/

http://www.restoringtally.com/ (Tally is restoring his foreskin.)

Circumcision: The Whole Story by Dr. Christopher Guest. This is a short clip from a longer video. I had the pleasure of meeting him at a conference and he is very intelligent and well-versed on this topic.
http://youtu.be/SeAXantm4tE


A Question for Circumcised Men by Latumway. Latumway discusses how easy the foreskin is too look after, since circumcised men and women in circumcising countries thing that the foreskin is difficult to look after.
http://youtu.be/uItw3f8fubM

Child Circumcision: An Elephant in the Hospital by Ryan McAllister. This is a lecture given by Ryan and the sources he used are linked to in the "About" section (you may have to click "See More").
http://youtu.be/Ceht-3xu84I

Penn and Teller Bullshit! -Circumcision
http://youtu.be/TY5g4fFhxWA

You do realise that the US is the ONLY country that still routinely circumcises boys on a wide scale? This is one case where the USA is clearly backwards compared to most other countries. Canada, the UK, and Australia/New Zealand used to circumcise and have largely stopped doing so. The majority of Europe (Finland, Germany, Norway, Romania, Russia, Denmark, the Netherlands are some examples) and most of Asia (Japan, China, India, Pakistan for example) at all countries where the majority of boys are left intact and remain so throughout their lives.
Cat: Colin Ferrel-uncut and...naked!forensicgirl on July 8th, 2013 06:01 am (UTC)
I should point out that several celebrities have also spoken out against circumcision, including Colin Ferrel (that's his foreskin in my icon, by the way), Russell Crowe, Gerard Butler, Howard Stern and Craig Ferguson.
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 8th, 2013 09:29 am (UTC)
Yes, you've made sure I know it's Colin Ferrel's foreskin several times now :P
Cat: forensicgirl on July 17th, 2013 03:45 am (UTC)
I often pull his name out when I get the "Ewww! I'd never have sex with a man with a foreskin!" comment from ignorant women. Giving them a list of intact celebrities tends to make them think.