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06 July 2013 @ 10:52 pm
I cannot believe I still have to say this: NOT YOUR PENIS, NOT YOUR CHOICE!  
Can you say American Hypocrisy? Yes, I knew you could.

"Equal protection under the 14th amendment.... unless you're a boy.

UTIs are easily treated via the use of antibiotics.... Unless you're a boy.

Genital mutilation is torture, disgusting and a cause for the World Health Organization to rise against it....unless you're a boy.

No doctor in her right mind would ever perform a surgery without adequate anesthesia or without it .... unless you're a boy.

Genitals are easy to clean.... unless you're a boy.

Circumcision aims to control you, rape you, deny you of sexual pleasure and is undeniably and unequivocally sexist to do it on a child based on gender... unless you're a boy.

If a baby shrills, thrashes, turns red, it is obviously a sign of great pain.... unless you're a boy.

Doctors live up to the Hippocratic Oath- to identify the problem, treat the problem if not self-limiting, perform the surgery if the problem cannot be treated, perform an amputation after all else has failed.... unless you're a boy...."

~ Annette Hawks Pratt
 
 
 
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 7th, 2013 07:13 pm (UTC)
Angela, given how your behavior toward me has been nothing short of psychotic on multiple occasions I'm going to take your statistics here with a grain of salt.

Is circumcision a medically unnecessary procedure? Sure it is, and for that reason I'm fine with getting rid of it. But the women who are all against it seem to demand a reaction of abject horror against it and nothing less will suffice. Men of my generation, in this country at least, tend to be pretty well indifferent to the fact that they got circumcised. Now you can say that it makes the penis less sensitive, and maybe it does, but it's not like we have a basis for comparison. The fact that this is something that directly affects men's penises and we're not concerned about it should tell you how little difference it actually makes.
Cat: Colin Ferrel-uncut and...naked!forensicgirl on July 8th, 2013 05:50 am (UTC)
"But the women who are all against it seem to demand a reaction of abject horror against it and nothing less will suffice."

Yes, because the only rational and reasonable reaction to amputating healthy, normal, functional tissue from the genitals of a helpless infant (usually without anesthetic) IS abject horror. Have you watched a video of a baby being circumcised? It's absolutely gut-wrenching. I work at a pet store and am not easily disgusted, but the agony these infants go through makes me physically ill. I will never allow that to happen to any children I have.
People in the US are horrified by female genital mutilation in all it's forms(as well they should be) and should also react to infant and child circumcision the same way, but circumcision has been culturally normalized in the US so most people ignore or accept it.

There's also cognitive dissonance at work. Here's an example:

"For the parents who chose circumcision, the new information, if true, means that they inadvertently hurt their children. This is a very tough pill to swallow. They were trying to do the right thing, they likely worried about it, and now they are told that they did the wrong thing. These factors all combine to give the parent a very strong incentive to deny the harm of circumcision and continue to assert that circumcision is not harmful. This is because it causes cognitive dissonance in their brains, and the human mind always works to resolve cognitive dissonance. It works like this:

I would never hurt my child.

But they are saying that circumcision did hurt my child.

I cannot be a person who would hurt my child.

Therefore, circumcision did not hurt my child.

There is another alternative to resolve the dissonance, and that is to say, “I did not know that circumcision was bad, and had I know that, I would not have chosen it, but I did what I thought was right then, and I regret that, and I would not do that again.” However, this is a very emotionally and spiritually sophisticated piece of reasoning, and it is the rare circumcising parent who quickly resolves her cognitive dissonance in this honest and difficult way."
You can read more about this here:
http://www.moralogous.com/2012/03/01/a-brief-history-of-the-foreskin-and-circumcision/

"Men of my generation, in this country at least, tend to be pretty well indifferent to the fact that they got circumcised....The fact that this is something that directly affects men's penises and we're not concerned about it should tell you how little difference it actually makes."

I covered this above-it's a combination of cognitive dissonance needing to be resolved and of cultural normalization. Men and women in countries where circumcision is not practiced are appalled by the procedure.

"Now you can say that it makes the penis less sensitive, and maybe it does, but it's not like we have a basis for comparison. "

Circumcision does make the penis less sensitive:
http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html
The Sorrells et al study is particularly interesting.

And frankly, that circumcised men don't know what they are missing is a poor excuse for anything. I don't know what it's like to be sexually assaulted, but that doesn't stop me from knowing that it is wrong to rape someone and speaking out about it when I can.



Cat: Bryaugh from The Flight of Dragons.forensicgirl on July 8th, 2013 05:59 am (UTC)
I know many men who are also appalled by circumcision as well. It's not that women specifically are horrified, it's that people who understand the foreskin and circumcision are horrified. It's just easier for us women to actually consider the issue. And I know several men who have been ridiculed for speaking out against circumcision-one of whom had all the skin on his penis removed and is completely incapable of having sex as a result. His suffering is totally unnecessary and his human rights were violated, but I have seem him mocked and put down over and over again when he tells his story in an effort to prevent the suffering of other men. More and more men are starting to speak up, but it is a very difficult process for them. I have a duty to share their stories and speak out to support them. I notice that men who speak up against female genital mutilation are praised. Shouldn't women who speak up against circumcision be treated with the same respect?
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 8th, 2013 09:28 am (UTC)
I'm sure if I went out of my looking for men who agreed with me that circumcision is the worst thing that can happen to a man, I'd find them too. But since I don't, I've never in my whole life met a man who felt shattered for being circumcised as an infant. You can always find people who agree with you if you're determined to.

Like I said, I agree that it's medically unnecessary. But you're telling me I need to feel horrified and destroyed by it and I simply don't. It's my penis and as far as I'm concerned, it's never been in any other way, and I happen to like it. I REALLY do not like people telling me how I should feel about my body, even if their underlying point is a valid one.

Do you?
Cat: Bryaugh from The Flight of Dragons.forensicgirl on July 17th, 2013 03:39 am (UTC)
"I'm sure if I went out of my looking for men who agreed with me that circumcision is the worst thing that can happen to a man, I'd find them too. But since I don't, I've never in my whole life met a man who felt shattered for being circumcised as an infant."

That still doesn't change the failure of your initial argument. I have proven that men do speak out against circumcision.

"But you're telling me I need to feel horrified and destroyed by it and I simply don't. It's my penis and as far as I'm concerned, it's never been in any other way, and I happen to like it. I REALLY do not like people telling me how I should feel about my body, even if their underlying point is a valid one."

I should have been more specific in my answer, and for that I apologize. I do expect any rational adult (including you) to be horrified that circumcision is still being practiced even though it has been proven to be unnecessary and harmful, and a violation of the human rights of the baby or child it is being inflicted upon (the right to security of the person or bodily autonomy). If you are happy with your penis as it is then you have every right to feel that way and I am glad, since as I said I know several men who are very angry they were circumcised. I would certainly feel angry if I found out that my parents had removed a functional part of my genitals for no reason (and they could have done so, since I was born before female genital mutilation was made illegal in Canada). As I said, I do expect you to feel at least some compassion for the boys who continue to be victims of this surgery.

Cat: Andre the Giant Has a Posse!forensicgirl on July 17th, 2013 03:41 am (UTC)
"You can always find people who agree with you if you're determined to."

That doesn't automatically make my arguments invalid. That's why I actually examine the evidence I am given. I have seen no evidence justifying circumcision that has stood up to reason, logic, ethics and science.
~ Bruno  ~: your levellordhellebore on July 15th, 2013 02:35 pm (UTC)
Psychotic. Now I know for certain that nothing you have to say could possibly be taken seriously. On any matter. Also, how gives you the right to use my first name on LJ?
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 15th, 2013 08:02 pm (UTC)
If nothing I say could be taken seriously, why do you care?
~ Bruno  ~: I can kill you with my brainlordhellebore on July 16th, 2013 05:47 am (UTC)
Amusing pastime for when I'm bored. Like people engaged with the village idiots in former times.
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 16th, 2013 11:29 pm (UTC)
Have fun being crazy and writing fan fiction, Angela.
~ Bruno  ~lordhellebore on July 17th, 2013 10:01 pm (UTC)
I'm having a lot of fun, thank you very much. You have fun being "a real author" and looking down on us. It sure is happy-making.
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 17th, 2013 11:12 pm (UTC)
Frankly, Angela, I'd forgotten you even existed until you came in here starting shit. It's not that I look down on you, it's that I don't even notice you're there to look down on to begin with.
~ Bruno  ~: lumière snickeringlordhellebore on July 17th, 2013 11:33 pm (UTC)
That's interesting in light of you now apparently neeeeding to have the last word and trying to antagonise me by using a name that's not even mine anymore.

Edited at 2013-07-17 11:33 pm (UTC)
The Poet and the Pendulumuberreiniger on July 17th, 2013 11:44 pm (UTC)
Well whatever you're calling yourself this week, have a nice life.
~ Bruno  ~: your words are poisonlordhellebore on July 15th, 2013 02:36 pm (UTC)
and we're not concerned about it

Yes, in your little corner of the world. Your US-centrism is laughable.
Cat: The United States of Liberty andforensicgirl on July 17th, 2013 03:43 am (UTC)
That's a very good point. People in other countries are appalled that circumcision is still being performed in the US. Hell, I live in Canada and I'm appalled by it.