WARNING!

The entry you are about to read contains discussion of religion (specifically Christianity), homosexuality (like the icon isn't a dead giveaway that I support it) and major fundie bashing. If you are easily offended, then you may not want to read this.

If you don't know what a fundie is, you might be one. So here is a definition from the Urban Dictionary (urbandictionary.com):

"A person, usually heavily right-winged Christian, who tries to force his religion and ideas down other people's throats. Impossible to argue with as they usually use the Bible as proof that they are right. Tries to censor everything. When anyone tries to stop them, they claim they are being oppressed, and the "oppressor" is a liberal activist who is against people of faith. Takes the Bible waaaaaay too literally. Laughs whenever they are beaten in a debate, stating cockily "Well, I win cause you're going to Hell." Also known as a Jesus Freak.

If this sounds like you, there's the back button in the top left corner of your browser. Feel free to use it. You won't like what I have to say.



ETA: Appparently this is hard to read, so anything posted by Fundie will look like this.
Anything by Fundie's Friend will look like this.


This all started when a friend sent me the link to the Fundie's journal. They were members of the same community, you see. I had a look at her journal, and when she posted an entry asking why men were so beautiful, this was my reply:

"That would be biology. They are beautiful so women will want to have sex with them. This ensures the continuation of the species.

Or did you have a specific man in mind?"

Fundie replied with this:

"Interesting that you mention continuation of the species...since in your icon you clearly support homosexuality, which, taken to its full extent, would be a definite END to the human species.

BTW, do you really label as "hate" the efforts to block same-sex marriage? Sure, there might have been a tiny margin of hating people, but the huge majority were simply people of common sense, giving sound, proven reasoning as to why they wanted marriage to stay between a man and a woman.

Thank you for your comments!"

She went on to add:

In addition to my earlier reply, I'd like to add this quote from Michael
Coren:

"It's about lack of tolerance in the name of tolerance. About oppression in the name of freedom. About bigotry in the name of the fight against the same. About silencing opponents and marginalizing millions of good, fine, honest Canadian men, women and children in the name of social engineering gone wild." "

So I said:

"Actually, given that only a small percent (10% seems to be the agreed upon number) of people identify themselves as gay or lesbian, homosexuality is no threat to the continuation of the human race. Look at how many cats and dogs there are, and how many of them are spayed or neutered. Unless everyone on the planet suddenly became homosexuals-not likely, since sexual orientation is already present at birth-the human race will continue.

Opposition to same-sex marriage is the result of either hatred or ignorance and misinformation. People misinterpret the Bible to serve their own ends. This has been happening for centuries, and will probably continue to happen. Segregation, slavery, the Holocaust, the execution of women who were suspected of being "witches"-all these events can be traced, at least in part, to the misinterpretation of the Bible. As the Bard said: "Even the Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."

The main reasons I've seen for opposing same-sex marriage are:
1) "The Bible says homosexuality is a sin." The Bible also says that if a bride is not a virgin, she must be stoned to death immediately (Deuteronomy 21:13-21). Right. That's called murder. Or if a man dies without producing a male heir, his wife must have sex with each of his brothers in turn until a male heir is produced (Mark 12: 18-27). Additionally, the Bible has been translated more than any other book in existence. How can you be sure the version you're reading is correct? Do the original documents even exist any more?

2) "Same-sex marriages can't produce children, and that's the purpose of marriage, so same-sex marriage is invalid." That's a rather narrow view of marriage, isn't it? I thought it was a partnership created as an expression of love. What about heterosexual couples who choose not to have children? Or are incapable of having them? I guess their marriages are invalid too.

There are scientific interventions that can enable a lesbian woman to become pregnant, or she could get a straight male friend to help her. Not common, but not impossible either. And adoption should be a viable choice as well. Given the discrimination that homosexuals are often subjected too, I would think they'd be more inclined to adopt a child with a disability, or one of mixed race. No-one else seems to want those children.

3) "Same-sex couples cannot raise children properly-the children will be corrupted or damaged in some way." There's the misinformation again. Being gay or lesbian is not a disease. You can't be infected with it. Once the basic needs of a child are met (food & water, shelter, clothing, etc.), what a child really needs is love. What about cases where the child is successfully raised by their grandparents or other relatives? That's not what is considered a standard family unit, but if it is a loving one, the child thrives. Single-parent homes, provided there are adequate finances to meet these basic needs, can also raise a loved and loving child.

Hatred would be the fourth reason. Humans tend to hate things or people that are different. Why? I don't know. But Jesus said "Love thy neighbour", not "Love thy neighbour, but only if they're white, straight, and Christian."

Then her Fundie Friend joined in by pointing out that people have expended a lot of energy on the same-sex issue that would be better spent on other issues. Next she pointed out that the same-sex marriage vote would contribute to the "tearing down morality" that is already going on in this world. Then she posted a quote about how homosexuality is selfish and serves no social or biological purpose. Plus I got the whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" crap.

So this was my response:

"There are certainly other problems in Canada that we should apply effort to. Crime would be a big one. But human rights are important too. After all, it wasn't until 1929 that women were considered "persons" under the law. What if those women hadn't said anything?

"Tearing down morality"? Interesting choice of words there. We live in a society where it's okay to use footage of a woman's breast being cut off in a movie. But if we use footage showing a woman's breast being touched in a loving manner-hoo boy! The world's going to end.

Actually, love is about being self-less.

And why does everything someone does have to have a moral purpose? If I choose to sit down and read a book, that doesn't serve a moral purpose. Or a biological one. But no-one's told me that reading is wrong because it has no purpose.

Nobody should be hating anybody else. You don't have to agree with them, so long as you disagree politely. Mind you, it's hard to see the difference between "hating the sin" and "hating the sinner" when the "sin" is a naturally occuring response. It's like hating someone's myopia, or bipolar disorder. If someone murders someone, I hate that they chose to perform that murder. Being a homosexual is not a choice.

Anyway, "

Apparently Fundie Friend didn't agree. This was the reply I received:

Very interesting read. In regards to all of this, there is one biblical passage that I would take over any of this:

1 Corinthians 6:9 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.

God doesn't change His mind how he feels about gays. This is His promised word! Check it out in the bible. It was human panderings and perversions of gospel [sic] that made up that blasphemous fish-thing you posted. I don't recognize that as a Christian symbol at all. Except of course that it is a Jesus fish coloured with the homosexual colours to promote their agenda towards Christianity. It is also those same things that people do that warped certain churches into thinking homosexual marriage and love is acceptable by God. It is also such things that created this whole "God
hates no one!" idea. God doesn't hate homosexuals. He just clearly states what their actions result to. Frankly, I'd take the word of God over the word of people any day. It's a matter of faith and choice to follow God.

And many would argue that homosexuality is both a choice and biology. Certain scientists believe that homosexuality can be cured at birth because, it is theorized that it is a genetic error that causes a mismatch in hormones. They also say, there is something within the family that causes a child to adopt the wrong sexual behaviours during growth. The gay males brain behaves a lot like a straight females brain. Vice versa with lesbians. It was interesting to read up on. Some Darwinists claim that homosexuality is a means of population control. Be sure to look up Exodus-international too.
Exodus International "

So I returned with:

"That's an interesting choice of passage. It contains yet another error of translation. There is, in fact, no word for "homosexual" in either Greek or Hebrew. Someone translating that piece of Scripture in 1958 chose "homosexual" for the Greek word "arsenokoitai"-a word for which there is no English translation. Some scholars suggest the meaning is much closer to "pedophile" than "homosexual."

It depends on how you view the Bible, I guess. I see it as a series of historical documents that may have originated with God, but were written down by humans. And once you get that human element in there, you have the possibility for error, and the chance that someone could have added something to meet their own ends. I have a responsibility as a Christian to question anything that seems odd to me. There is a Muslim word for this-"ijtihad"-which is the idea of independant thought. I eat both shellfish and pork because I know that the warnings against them in the Bible are for safety reasons. And yes, if you don't cook pork or shellfish properly, it can make you ill. But "unclean"? They are animals. It's almost as bad as this: Are Cats for True Christians? Right. My cats are agents of Satan. *eyeroll*

Nope. That "fish-thing" is based on the idea that everyone deserves God's love, regardless of race, age, sexual orientation, economic status, or any other number of factors that people use to judge one another.

And if you found that offensive, you're going to hate this too:
But all of those things are true. Jesus was a socialist, he was radical, he was Jewish and he probably did have long hair. He was probably darker-skinned than we tend to think, though. More like most Arab people are today.

Umm...how would one cure a "genetic error"? That includes things like Down's Syndrome. And I can't see how chidren could learn sexual behavior from their parents. Which behaviors would these be? Playing with guns instead of dolls?

The concept of brain wiring (the idea that gay men have "feminized" brains) is one of the better explanations I have seen. There's a good explanation of it in a book called "Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps" By Barbara and Allan Pease. But again, this would indicate that sexual orientation is already fixed before birth.

Homosexuality could be a biological means of population control. In that case, I think it's a good thing. Eventually we are going to exceed the carrying capacity of the Earth, and what then?

I hadn't seen that web site before. Hmm...I shall have to read it tomorrow.

These are some I find interesting.
Religious Tolerance -An excellent site promoting tolerance and the sharing of information between religions.
Soulforce A group that uses the non-violent protest methods of Ghandi and King in an effort to end spiritual violence. "Spiritual violence is the misuse of religion to sanction the condemnation and rejection of any of God's children."
Dear Dr. Dobson -This is a sub-site of SoulForce that looks at the ideas of Dr. Dobson specifically. While I agree that families need encouragement, support, and the tools to help each other in these hard times, my definition of "family" is not based on sexual orientation. Nor do I think same-sex couples are a threat to family values. Hatred is not a value in my family.
Egale Canada-Another site commited to justice and equality for gays, lesbians, bisexual, and trans-gendered people. "

Fundie Friend realy didn't like this. She said:

"And because you use such filth in your posts - I can't really take anything else you say seriously. Since you job is to offend...and I don't put up with that bullshit.
Good day and God help you.

And:

"Well, since you pretty much aim to insult with images like that, I really can't take any of what you're saying seriously. Alot of what you say is pretty misinformed and/or jaded anyway. If you want to offend Christianity, you shouldn't blow the whistle about who is hating who..since you just clearly did it yourself. It just makes no logical sense.
Offend Christians. Pander homosexuals. Great idea. The two go together
super.
I'm sorry but, this gets old.
God bless. "

Which is funny, because I did a lot of research for those entries.


Plus I managed to make them delete the entire thread (hence the paraphrasing in some spots). Go me!

Final Score:
Fundies: 0
Forensicgirl: 2